I don't typically like to do this. I want people to come here and make comments, however ridiculous, without worrying that I'll publicly rip them a new one, but every so often, someone shows up so thoroughly impacted with putrid, fermenting shit that they are literally begging for a new rectal orifice, and James Huges is just such a reader.
In response to a really old post about statistics of the so-called "Intefada," Mr. Hughes spewed forth this idiocy:
Isarael will have to choose at some point if it would like a democratic Israel including the West Bank or a religeous Israel without the West Bank.The current choice (occupation and settlement building) results in terrorism. That is Israels choice.
More importantly, "Sir," does your little statement extend to all victims of terrorist attacks, anywhere? Did the victims of 9/11 "choose" their fate? What about the people in the Murrah building? Was there something they could have done to prevent Tim McVeigh from blowing them up? Did the postal workers who died from Anthrax "choose" their fates? What about Leon Klinghoffer on the Achille Lauro way back when? Was there something he, or the governments of Italy, the US AND Israel could have done to save his life? Do you really think so?
Or are you strictly speaking of Israelis living within the borders of the state of Israel? Are you making any distinction between those who agree with Sharon's policies and those who don't? Are we talking about Israeli Arabs and Christians too, or just Jews? Do the little children--who can't even vote yet, and are NOT taught to hate Palestinians--have a "choice" too? Should they get down on their knees and beg for forgiveness from the kids their own ages (some as young as 3) who would just as soon kill them as talk to them? Because from the time they can walk and talk, Palestinians are taught to hate and want to kill them you know, even before they are old enough to understand why!
Are you also aware (sounds like you're not) that Israel is NOT a theocracy? It is a Jewish state, but only insofar as Jews are allowed to move there and become citizens automatically, and they may serve in the military. ALL Israelis, of every religion (and they are all represented, by the way) are allowed to run for office, to go to school, to study whatever they want, read whatever they want, write whatever they want and work at whatever profession (again, except the military) they choose.
Why aren't non Jews allowed in the military? Well, think about it! If Israel weren't surrounded by hostile neighbors, most of whom are hostile to Jews specifically, perhaps non-Jews would be allowed to serve, but as it is, it's neither prudent nor humane to draft people (and they do have conscription there) who might be quite hostile to the notion that they might die in the service of a country they'd like to see disappear.
Perhaps someday this distinction might change, just as our military changed and allowed Japanese Americans to fight for the US during WWII, but even so, they were not DRAFTED into the military for the obvious reason that their affinity might be elsewhere. It's pure logic and common sense.
Why a Jewish State? Because Jews have been forcibly kicked out of just about every country on Earth, and if they didn't set up a country of their own, they'd never be safe. Every Arab country has either expelled or killed off the vast majority of its Jewish population, but apparently this doesn't bother you. Muslim countries, I guess, are OK with you, even though they ruthlessly oppress their OWN people, as well as those who aren't Muslim in the first place. Israel allows freedom of religion in Israel, Saudi Arabia does NOT.
Do you know who the terrorists are? They are groups like Hamas who said the following just the other day:
"We will not stop our resistance as long as one Zionist continues to breathe our air," Hamas, which has vowed to wreck a U.S. peace plan for the region, said in a statement.
Have you read their charter? Do you know what they want? They don't want a separate Palestinian state. Neither do they want to simply "return" to Israel and live in freedom and democracy. They want to kill every Jew, Christian, Druze, or other non-Muslim in Israel, then they want to run it as a Muslim theocracy, like Iran. Are you OK with THAT?
You sit there smugly and proclaim that Israel is the undemocratic one. Israel is the oppressor in your view. Has Israel razed to the ground the Dome of the Rock, or any mosque for that matter? Yet these Palestinian "victims" you defend are hard at work demolishing any archeological evidence that Jews ever set foot in East Jerusalem, or the West Bank areas for that matter.
What about those schools? What are Israeli kids taught about Arabs or Muslims? Are they taught that they are "apes and pigs" who drink the blood of Jews for breakfast? No. But that's exactly what Palestinian children are taught about Jews--that they are inhuman, blood libeling swine who must be killed, even if it means dying yourself in the process.
What happens to an Israeli who kills a Palestinian in cold blood? He, or she, is arrested and brought up on murder charges and, if convicted (which is not unlikely if there is evidence), he or she will spend the rest of his or her life in jail. What happens to suicide bombers, or Palestinian gunmen who kill innocent Israelis in cold blood, even those still residing in their pregnant mother's womb? Streets are named after them. T-shirts are printed with their faces on them. Parades are held in their honor, and their family receives a big fat check from whoever the terror-sponsor du jour might be.
How could Israel possibly absorb a population that hates it so much? HOW? How would this not be suicide? Either you know nothing about the history of this region, or you just don't care if Israel survives at all. I'm guessing it's some combination of both.
In which case, shut the fuck up, you have no idea what you're talking about.
Posted by insomnomaniac at May 20, 2003 4:22 PM | TrackBackGreat response Deb! Unfortunately the useful idiots out there are numerous. Just as Pres.Bush said we had to hunt the terrorists down "one by one" so too, it is necessary to Fisk these mindless leftists one by one.
Posted by: Stephen at May 20, 2003 6:45 PMHo-ly shit. That was a great response, I don't know what to say. It was informative and decisive, well done. Has that troll responded?
Posted by: tom at May 20, 2003 10:58 PMthe statement this guy makes is so devoid of logic or knowledge, I'm amazed you were able to put together such an eloquent, right-on response. my jaw is still on the floor. the ignorance in this world is simply amazing.
Israel can choose to be a democratic state? Israel is the ONLY democratic state in a hate-filled, tyrannical, Koran-thumping region. but why would somebody who probably can't even place it on a map or is clueless about history know that?
ugh.
Posted by: nathalie at May 21, 2003 11:59 AMSo, Deb.... would you like to tell us how you REALLY feel?
And I agree with you, completely.
Posted by: Dave Mangan at May 21, 2003 3:06 PMI was unable to read your old post or Mr. Huges's comment, but I think I get the gist. Bear with me if I missed something, but...
If you take the perspective of an American, born and bred with an ideal of tolerance and church/state separation, and apply that point of reference to Israel et al it is quite rational to come to the conclusion that it is all Israel's fault.
Here is the logic path: I'm an American, I am tolerant of my neighbor's religion. Our government works because we constitutionally separate church and state. Our people peacefully coexist because of these ideals. What is the problem?
If the people are willing to live in peace, the logical source of the problem must be the state. In this case, the state is Israel.
A more educated person would recognize the myriad of historical, social and psychological factors which throw copious amounts of scalding hot water on this theory.
But educating someone, lifting someone and dispelling ignorance involves some effort and does not yield positive feedback from your peanut gallery,, now does it?
Perhaps a more helpful approach would be to educate and inform rather than denigrate and "Fisk". Certainly handing out the individual's email so your readers can shit all over the fellow falls well short of exhibiting any form of charitable behavior or class, for that matter.
Fact is, you blew an opportunity to be part of the solution. Yeah, you.
Posted by: Anton at May 21, 2003 4:17 PMWell Anton, in theory I missed an opportunity, but given that you didn't read the post, or probably any of my MANY other posts that attempt to do that very thing (and the reader I fisked obviously had), I feel like I've tried, and failed with this guy (and many others, by the way).
This is an opinion blog, not a teaching tool. I do not profess to have all the answers. All I hope to do is create enough cognitive dissonance for those who come here married to a given viewpoint that MAYBE they will read the posts I link to (you were unclear as to why you didn't, but it seems like you are just as much at fault for "missing an opportunity" as anyone), and the materials linked to from them, and MAYBE, just maybe, they'll learn something.
If not, well then, fuck 'em. Sorry, but it's my site and if people want to remain willfully ignorant, that's their prerogative in free countries like the U.S. AND Israel, by the way (if you even read this post you'd know that CHURCH AND STATE are separate in Israel--being a "Jewish" state has nothing to do with theology, and everything to do with cultural heritage. You could be a Jewish atheist and be Israeli. There is no religious litmust test, nor is the bible the basis of their system of government).
Posted by: Deb at May 21, 2003 7:13 PMDeb,
Well said. Why is the obvious so obtuse to some? I hope you saw Lee's link to MOXIE's video on tonights Right Thinking, just a digusting 10 minutes of Palestian indoctrination of small children, chilling and horrifying.
Posted by: John at May 22, 2003 2:27 AMI find it so very interesting that people purposely try to make things more difficult than they are. Palestinians are taught to hate and kill Jews, terror results. The need to point out that other factors are involved is superfluous. There are always other factors involved in everything. This is the type of thinking that leads to the notion that no one is personally responsible for their actons. Yes, I'm an alcoholic but other factors were involved. Yeah, I beat my wife but if you were intelligent, you'd understand that there are other factors involved. I murdered that guy, but those god damn other factors were involved. It's not me, it's the "other factors".
Well, no sh*t. I understand there are reasons behind every action and consequence. That doesn't change the fact that you are an alcoholic, wife beating, murderer and that doesn't change the fact that Palestinian organizations hate Jews and want to destroy Israel.
I fit just weren't for those m-f'ing other factors.
Posted by: jaboobie at May 22, 2003 8:30 AMWho is this "Anton" and where did he get the synaptic energy to move his fingers on the keyboard? I have not seen such a blatant example of total bullshit in quite a while.
Hey, numbnuts, did you even bother to read what Deb wrote here? Did not a single word get past your tack-welded-on leftwingnut blinders? You state "If the people are willing to live in peace, the logical source of the problem must be the state. In this case, the state is Israel." Jesus H. Christ, what part of the statement "...when a group of people [the Palestinians] raise their children to hate another group of people just because they are "Jews," and manufacture sick video games that teach these same kids to dream about expressing their hatred through cold-blooded murder of innocent women, children, elderly people, dogs, cats, donkeys, you name it..." don't you fucking understand? Does this sounds like "people [who] are willing to live in peace" to you? Rather than "dispelling ignorance", you are either showcasing your own, or you are a bald-faced liar, one of the two.
I *am* aware of "the myriad of historical, social and psychological factors" at work in the region, and the sad simple FACT is that the Arabs in general and the Palestinians in particular, brought this state of affairs upon themselves. The day the state of Israel was founded, their Arab neighbors tried, not once, not twice, but three times, to destory Israel and "drive the Jews into the sea", in set-piece battles. And each time they got their nasty asses royally kicked, even though they had the Israelis outmanned and outgunned. Once it became clear that the Jews were not leaving, if the Arabs were as "rational" and "peace-loving" as you try (and fail, because they are not) to make them out to be, they could have sat down with Israel years ago, negotiated in good faith and settled all this DECADES ago.
But no, they (the Arabs) would rather live off their hatred, supported by brain-dead leftist morons such as yourself, and so go around murdering in cold blood little girls in synagogues, families in pizza parlors, old folks in grocery markets, and other such "brave and heroic" acts of utter barbarity.
If anyone "blew an opportunity" here, Goober, it was YOU. Deal with it.
Posted by: The Captain at May 22, 2003 9:03 AMDeb, good comments. The day is coming when Irael will no longer tolerate the Pali terrorism and the boom will be lowered. Can't come soon enough for me. I see a small window now for renunciation of terrorism and honest negotiation, otherwise their end is near.
Posted by: Bill Oh at May 22, 2003 10:13 AMPriceless.....just the right combination of anger and correctness :)
Posted by: shark at May 22, 2003 1:28 PMI was able to read the post in question from your main page. The link from your archives prompts for a password. My apologies, but I still found the gentleman's post innocuous and the blathering of certain comrades unfortunate and predictable. Compare the rhetoric of "The Captain" with your run of the mill Mullah and I find the two depressingly redundant.
"Being a "Jewish" state has nothing to do with theology, and everything to do with cultural heritage."
Very true, Israel is a democracy. Israel is not a constitutional republic. It is a Jewish democracy, run by Jews, for Jews. As such, Israel will continue to be attacked.
What fact did I get wrong?
Posted by: Anton at May 22, 2003 2:52 PMI was able to read the post in question from your main page. The link from your archives prompts for a password. My apologies, but I still found the gentleman's post innocuous and the blathering of certain comrades unfortunate and predictable. Compare the rhetoric of "The Captain" with your run of the mill Mullah and I find the two depressingly redundant.
"Being a "Jewish" state has nothing to do with theology, and everything to do with cultural heritage."
Very true, Israel is a democracy. Israel is not a constitutional republic. It is a Jewish democracy, run by Jews, for Jews. As such, Israel will continue to be attacked.
What fact did I get wrong?
Posted by: Anton at May 22, 2003 2:52 PMAnton, I have no idea why you were prompted for a password...
As for what you got wrong, Israel is a Jewish state in exactly the way I stated. Did you miss it? Israel is not run "by Jews, for Jews" in quite the exclusive way you imply. Jews are the majority population, to be sure, and therefore occupy more seats in the Knesset (their Parliament) than other faiths/cultures, but even within their number, there is quite a range of viewpoints represented (left, right, centrist, far right religious, pretty much just like here in the US).
Where you are INCORRECT is in forgetting that Arabs (be they Christian, Muslim Druze or Atheist for that matter) and other non-Jewish citizens are represented in the Knesset as well. They can run for public office, they can own land, their lack of "Jewishness" has nothing to do with their ability to participate in government in any way shape or form.
In fact, since free press is such an integral part of participating in the democratic process, it might interest you to note that Israel allows Arabs and other non-Jews to write and print whatever they want about the sitting government. There is no censorship whatsoever, and as such, there are some pretty radical anti-government news sources in Israel (some even owned by Jews, by the way).
What the Jews in Israel do not want, and cannot allow, is for the virulently anti-semitic, anti-American population of Palestinians to "return" to the current Israeli state-held territories. Jews would instantly become the minority living at the whims of a majority who hate and want to kill them.
There is no comparison between Israel and S. African Apartheid, for example, because Jews are NOT the minority oppressing the majority, and they are not denying Arabs/Muslims who already live in Israel the full rights of citizenship. The only exception is the right to serve in the military, but you must understand that even if they allowed it, Muslim law forbids Muslims to fight for an "infidel" nation. Even our own Muslim soldiers here in the U.S. (if they are religious) ask for a special dispensation from their mosque or cleric so they can serve in our military. This isn't our rule, it's theirs. Political realities, combined with this make it a bit absurd to think that Israel's denial of military duty is "oppressive" to non-Jews.
To read more about this, you can check out either of these two sites:
Israel Insider
Myths and Facts about Human Rights in Israel
Deb-
No, I said Israel is a democracy. I recognize the fact that non-Jews participate in the government.
In your own words though: "Jews would instantly become the minority living at the whims of a majority (who hate and want to kill them.)"
Take a deep breath and try to imagine that the hating and killing is no longer an issue, so we can cross out the words I put in parentheses. I'd like to see that. I know you would too.
I'll rewrite that sentence less the hate and killing. As a matter of fact, I'm going to rewrite your entire paragraph less hate, killing and fear.
It would read: "What the Jews in Israel do not want, and cannot allow, (is the) population of Palestinians to "return" to the current Israeli state-held territories. Jews would instantly become the minority living at the whims of a majority."
That is not one man, one vote. That is excluding people. Is that really a democracy?
Posted by: Anton at May 23, 2003 10:59 AMWell, let's take your comments a bit further Anton...How many countries out there have two PMs? How many have two Parliaments? To continue to suggest that after more than 50 years, Israel INCLUDES the West Bank and Gaza is to deny history, not to just "omit the words."
Also, it's not as easy as that. Israel cannot just pretend that generations of Palestinians have:
a) Called themselves Palestinian! They do NOT consider themselves Israelis, nor do they want to live side-by-side with Jews and Christians, they just don't, you can't wash that away. They've invented an entire nationality for themselves.
b) Raised their children to hate and to desire the deaths of others--you can't just wipe that out, nor can you reeducate them.
Anton, the problem is, your assertion that Israel would exclude them if they were truly peace-loving, and just "different" is a complete denial of reality since the birth of Israel. Your assertion assumes they woke up one day and said "Let's kick out all the Arabs." They didn't.
If--miraculously--you could remove hate and killing from the scenario, I'm not so sure Israel WOULD exclude them, and neither can you be. You can't just wipe away reality and then say "aha! see, this proves Israel is exluding people just cuz!"
It proves no such thing.
Ask yourself these questions:
1) Why was there a need for a "Partition Plan" in the first place?
2) Why did the Arabs turn it down in the first place?
3) Who attacked who, in the first place (when Israel was less than a day old)?
4) Who hasn't ceased attacking Israel since, for more than a few months at a time?
5) Whose schools teach hatred to young kids?
6) Who glorifies the killing of the other?
7) Who depicts the region we know as "Israel" as "Palestine, from the river to the sea" with no borders in between?
8) Who claims to be a distinct nationality, separate and apart from (and completely ignoring the existance or relevance of) Israel?
When you've answered all those questions, you will see that "exclusion" in this case is NOT a one-way street, and in fact is not Israel's prefernence for no good reason.
You can change a paragraph, you can't change reality. Words are meaningless in this situation, they just are.
Posted by: Deb at May 23, 2003 11:13 AMOne more thing Anton...If you're so busy losing sleep over "exclusion" do me a favor and read this all of it, don't just say you did and give me a "yes but," READ IT, and then start writing some comments on the sites of people who support these policies, will you?
For consistency's sake at least.
:-)
Posted by: Deb at May 23, 2003 11:19 AMAnton: Who gives a damn any more whether Israel is a democracy, a theocracy a Jewocrasy. What it is,as Deb takes pains to explain, is a nation of Jews, under attack by Arabs whose stated aim is to expell or kill all the Jews. Even in Arab countries where there are no longer any Jews- Algeria, Lybia, Syria, Egypt, Yemen, etc. the anti-Semitic tantrums continue unabated in the media, the mosques,and the schools. Israelis, even the leftist pacifist utopians live in dread of going to school, market, riding a bus, attending a wedding, a seder or prayer, because all Jewish civilians and places of assembly are considered fair targets by terrorists. From your safe perch, you are free to blather on about rights, religion, democracy and all your other concerns. You think it's Israel's fault? Frankly I could not care less what you or your ilk think about anything.
Posted by: RUTH KING at May 23, 2003 5:43 PM